Kathy Clubb: Dom Alcuin, it is now more than eighteen months since the clandestine ordinations which led to your suspension. How do you feel now about your decision? 

Dom Alcuin: No one wanted to take the steps we did – most especially not ourselves. But with our bishop effectively paralysed by ongoing Vatican scrutiny and pressure and therefore being unable to give our community the assurance of the sacramental life that is its living heart – most especially the Mass – we were faced with accepting a gradual spiritual euthanasia.

We prayed, we consulted, I went back again and again to Bishop Rey to see if there was any possibility of moving forward. “There is nothing I can do,” was his constant response. His was not so much a refusal to ordain us as a declaration of his inability to do so. His hands were tied—though at the time only very few knew how tightly.

Our decision to accept the offer of ordinations – for which we never asked – was made in conscience, over time, before God. Conscientious disobedience is a reality in moral theology, albeit rightly rare in practice. We chose life over death by euthanasia.

Knowing this situation, one prelate offered to confer the ordinations. Another advised that disobedience to the norms was better than other options. Others were distressed at the impasse and what it could mean for us.

Our decision to accept the offer of ordinations – for which we never asked – was made in conscience, over time, before God. Conscientious disobedience is a reality in moral theology, albeit rightly rare in practice. We chose life over death by euthanasia.

Certainly, there was much fuss when this became known (it was imprudently and abruptly made public by a diocesan official two weeks after I informed the bishop privately, seeking to find a way to move forward together peacefully) and all of that generated more heat than light. Canonically the documents emanating from our Chancery were embarrassing – more reactions than considered acts.

Regardless of all of this, and of the sanctions you mentioned (the validity of which are dubious) we have experienced a great peace – that pax inter spinas, that peace amidst the thorns – in our daily life ever since. We no longer have to beg for priestly ministry. I no longer have to spend anxious Saturdays begging busy priests to somehow find time to come to offer Mass for us and for the people who come here on a Sunday. We can pray and work tranquilly and know that the Mass will be the centre of our daily monastic observance.

As time has passed, have those who were originally scandalised by the ordinations come to see the wisdom of such a move?

I am sure that many people were surprised if not shocked. Some were angry. But I am not sure that we scandalised people. People who know us know that we are fairly balanced and mainstream ecclesiastically (even if we do celebrate the older rites) and that I personally have worked closely with Bishop Rey and other high-ranking prelates in liturgical matters for quite some time.

When people understand this wider context they can see how it was necessary for us to act in order to survive. We have received much understanding and support, including from several bishops and many clergy.

People certainly asked why we believed it necessary. The answer to that came in June 2022 when it was revealed that in the previous April (the month our ordinations took place) the Holy See, as part of its ongoing scrutiny of Bishop Rey, had formally forbidden him to ordain anyone at all. This was a shock, but perhaps not a surprise. And it had nothing at all to do with us, but with a group of malcontent priests in the diocese who had, two years before, launched a petition against the bishop’s seminary reforms prompting the Vatican to start ‘fraternal’ visits, banning ordinations, sending in an Apostolic Visitation at the beginning of 2023 and then appointing a coadjutor bishop with special powers (and removing those powers from Bishop Rey) in November 2023.

When people understand this wider context they can see how it was necessary for us to act in order to survive. We have received much understanding and support, including from several bishops and many clergy. We all regret that these steps were necessary and sincerely wish they had not been. So too, we have always publicly deprecated the moves against Bishop Rey. But, yes, people do understand that our move was necessary, if not actually prudent in the context in which we found ourselves.

Does the future of the diocese and its seminarians remain uncertain?

The new Coadjutor named last November, Bishop Francois Touvet, is a competent and orthodox man with a good reputation. He has announced ordinations for January and June of 2024 and is himself responsible for deciding who will be ordained. He has not called all of those whose ordinations were delayed to be ordained in January, but has said that their situations will be studied further in the coming months. Clearly, he is being careful.

Both he and Bishop Rey have gone to great lengths to insist that they form a team and are working together for the same ends. I believe them: they are both good, God-fearing men who are trying to make the best of a situation neither of them would have chosen, for the good of the diocese. Time will tell how this will work, but I am sure they will try their best to make it do so.

There has been no mention of the implementation of Traditionis Custodes to date: in respect of that we must wait and see.

The only problem is that it is certain that the Holy See will have given instructions to the Coadjutor Bishop. He may not be utterly free in his decisions, but rather be compelled to act in certain ways.

There has been no mention of the implementation of Traditionis Custodes to date: in respect of that we must wait and see. There are many celebrations of the traditional Mass and sacraments in the diocese – Mgr Rey has always been open to all that is good and of God. I am sure that Mgr Touvet is not opposed, but he may have been given ‘a job to do’ regardless.

So too, there are seminarians and communities in the diocese who have an expectation of being ordained in the older rites, with the minor orders and subdiaconate and so on. These expectations arise from the constitutions of their (diocesan) communities or from the openness of Mgr Rey to so doing. One simply cannot imagine the Holy See permitting this at present, which will undoubtedly precipitate an unnecessary but real crisis in the communities and seminarians concerned.

The hardships experienced by your monastery are only one of a number of controversies apparent in the Diocese of Fréjus-Toulon. While Rome’s vendetta against traditional orders is well known, how does one explain its suspicion of the Bishop’s handling of the Novus Ordo groups, particularly some charismatic ones?

Bishop Rey has always been open to giving initiatives and people a chance, or even a second chance. Sometimes this has borne good fruit, sometimes it has not and there have been some instances in the diocese of what one might call ‘modern new communities’ not going well. But Bishop Rey has always dealt with these problems directly, justly and efficiently. He certainly has never tried to cover them up or disregard them.

If he has been at fault, it has been because he has trusted people. But then he is profoundly paternal, and trust is a way in which a true father brings his sons to maturity. Bishop Rey has used the analogy of having a good car: if you keep it in the garage all the time, he says, it will never crash or be damaged. But if you take it out on the road there is always a risk. Other bishops polish their cars in their garages and have no trouble from Rome. Bishop Rey drives his and accepts that there may be accidents. But he gets somewhere, regardless, and is not paralysed by fear.

Is the appointment of a coadjutor bishop by Pope Francis with sweeping - some would say, unprecedented - powers of governance over the Diocese a helpful move? Given Bishop Rey’s popularity and success in many areas, what could cause Rome to intervene in such a dramatic manner?

There is no question that this is a punitive move, appeasing the many French bishops who have disliked (if not been jealous of) Mgr Rey for many years, and playing to the voice of a small number of malcontent clergy in the diocese. As I said, both the bishops are doing their best to make this situation work well. It must be very dispiriting for a charismatic man like Bishop Rey, but he is a man of the Church and will do his best, I am sure.

If the traditional Mass is attacked, clearly this will be a loss. It is not at all easy to see how it will all unfold.

Whether it will be helpful to the diocese, to the vocations Mgr Rey has recruited, to the urgent need to evangelise and re-evangelise, remains to be seen. There is a danger that it could deflate the dynamism of the diocese, certainly and that good vocations and communities could be lost to it. If the traditional Mass is attacked, clearly this will be a loss. It is not at all easy to see how it will all unfold. But what is clear is that the Coadjutor is of good will, thank God. If he becomes convinced of the real fruits that the hard work of Mgr Rey has cultivated, he may well himself become their defender and protector. We must pray for this.

What is the current status of the monastery? What does its daily life involve?

We are canonically and financially independent of the diocese at this time—we own our own property and have that security, thanks be to God. Some people have described us as being “not in communion with Rome”, which is utter theological nonsense. We may be canonically irregular (that is, according to Church law) but we have broken communion with no one: our bishop and the reigning Pope are prayed for at every Mass, as in any Catholic Church.

Of course, the canonical irregularity cries out for rectification and we hope and pray that will be possible. It may require some changes in recent legislation, but if we remember the history of groups in the 1970s and 1980s, such changes and regularisation are possible. Even Pope Francis has given various faculties to the canonically irregular (but nevertheless Catholic) Society of St Pius X. We hope and pray for and shall work towards canonical regularisation, without doubt. Becoming irregular may have been a necessary step in the circumstances, but it is not an end in itself.

First and foremost, our daily life involves singing the eight canonical hours of the Monastic Office, and Mass. Then there is the work of study, administration, publishing, work in the garden with our poultry or in the greenhouse, the welcoming of increasing numbers of pilgrims and guests, etc. All in all it is a fairly normal, classical living of monastic life, with a great openness to the intellectual apostolate without, however, eschewing the spiritually and physically healthy element of monastic life that is manual work.

Since your community is financially independent from the Diocese of Fréjus-Toulon, are you free to continue expanding and making plans for the future? What do those plans involve?

Yes, indeed. Fiscally we are a civil non-profit organization governed by ourselves as trustees. So we are proceeding with the restoration and expansion of our medieval buildings with the relevant authorities. Because our Romanesque church dates from the 10^th century and other parts of the building are also ancient, this involves the heritage authorities as well as the usual local and regional ones, so progress is seemingly slow. But it seems that this will be accelerated this year, thank God!

I don’t like to speak of a “traditionalist movement” because that can lead to a ghetto-like mentality. One of the successes of Pope Benedict XVI’s Summorum Pontificum was that in many dioceses and parishes so-called “traditionalists” became simply “Catholics” once again.

So too we are developing our grounds, garden and land (we have 33 hectares, mainly forest) to ensure their productivity and usability for ourselves and our guests. It is important to build up our sustainability and our facilities for welcoming new vocations and guests. Our architects are working hard on the latter.

What are your observations about the traditionalist movement, including in Australia? Do you have any words of encouragement for young men who feel called to the priesthood but are concerned about the prevalent confusion and disorder?

I hesitate to speak about Australia specifically because I have been away for a long time. I will say that it seems that the bishops—with one major exception—have been very welcoming of the true goods that the older liturgical rites bring to their dioceses and of the healthy and fruitful attraction they exercise upon the young. The new traditional monastery in Tasmania is also a great blessing for our country.

I don’t like to speak of a “traditionalist movement” because that can lead to a ghetto-like mentality. One of the successes of Pope Benedict XVI’s Summorum Pontificum was that in many dioceses and parishes so-called “traditionalists” became simply “Catholics” once again, with the development of much understanding, respect and good will between clergy and laity and the bishop in many places.

Unfortunately 2021’s Traditionis Custodes, and the attitude of those who are pursuing its implementation, have brought that to an end, creating division where unity was growing and pushing people back into ghettos. History will not judge this policy kindly, most especially its ideological motivation and in respect of the crass pastoral insensitivity with which it is being enforced.

We must resist this Stalinist imposition of a profoundly un-Catholic liturgical uniformity as best we can in our different circumstances, and continue to maintain the truth that “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.” (Benedict XVI) The truth does not change with different popes or cardinals. We must keep the rich, warm flame of liturgical tradition alight so that it can give light and strength to future generations. The Church will thank us for this in the end.

Sure, times are tough. But young people are more than equal to the challenge, and through perseverance in God’s grace they can become the reforming saints we shall need in the future.

I would add one observation: there is a real danger, particularly in times of persecution such as the present, that self-styled “traditionalists” can become very inward-looking, reactionary and brittle. One only needs to read some on-line commentaries to see this. It is understandable given the ill-treatment many have suffered, but it is nevertheless dangerous.

We are Catholics, not “traditionalists” and we are called to speak the truth in charity, even—especially—with those who persecute or ridicule us. We must refuse to be forced into a ghetto! That may sound odd coming from an enclosed monk, but we welcome whoever comes here: they do not need to carry a traditionalist passport! Sometimes, however, this seems to be demanded by some traditionalists. In my opinion that dangerously limits the operation of God’s Providence.

In respect of vocations, it is more than understandable that young men and women who believe they should test a vocation to the monastic, priestly or religious life hesitate at present: very little seems certain, and one does not want to enter formation without the stability that is vitally necessary for that formation.

My advice would be to trust in God’s Providence, find a monastery, a seminary or a community that has as much stability as possible (and of course an integral and stable traditional liturgical life) and commit yourself to it. Leave the rest to Almighty God and to His Providence: he will reward your trust and your gift in ways you cannot now imagine.

If young men and women hesitate and procrastinate unduly, the devil will gain a victory through another lost vocation and God’s Providence will not have sufficient dedicated souls at its disposition when it is time to rebuild the Church in the future. Sure, times are tough. But young people are more than equal to the challenge, and through perseverance in God’s grace they can become the reforming saints we shall need in the future.

Certainly, we are in a critical moment in the history of the Church unlike any other, but our task in such a situation is to be ever more faithful, to be courageous, to refute and resist falsehood and evil, and to form and build up families and communities that can rebuild the Church in due course.

In spite of irregularity and the many troubles in the Church at present, you seem optimistic. Why is that?

I suppose I am. I hope I am. But that is because God is God and He will give us the grace we need to persevere and to bear good fruit if only we will seek the conversion of our lives and cooperate with His grace. The monastic life is all about this conversion and cooperation with God’s grace, and therein lies its beauty, to which we seek to respond by singing God’s praises day and night in their rich traditional forms.

Certainly, we are in a critical moment in the history of the Church unlike any other, but our task in such a situation is to be ever more faithful, to be courageous, to refute and resist falsehood and evil, and to form and build up families and communities that can rebuild the Church in due course. There is much for each of us to be getting on with, and whilst we may not see the results of our efforts immediately, we can be sure that if we do the best we can, God will bless our efforts.

There are many, many fine young Catholics—single, married, clerical, monastic and religious—who are well formed, energetic and courageous, who see this crisis for what it is. They are ready for action. That is a great reason for optimism. Their time will come. But we must continue to build up their ranks. It is a joy and a consolation that our monastery can play a modest part in that. It is our prayer that many others, parents, teachers, priests and religious shall do so also.

Finally, are our readers able to visit the monastery?

Certainly. Our facilities for accommodation are limited at present (the next year or two should see some progress on our new guesthouse), but we are happy to welcome male guests to stay as in any monastery. Our Masses and other liturgical offices are open to the general public. We are located along the main road between Nice and Marseille in Provence in the South-East of France. Our website gives further details www.monasterebrignoles.org and provides a contact form: it’s always good to know in advance when visitors are coming. And of course, people can visit us virtually through the site, subscribe to our newsletter or follow us on Facebook. We need to remain in contact and to encourage and support each other in these difficult times.

God bless you and all your readers!

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